THE WITNESS: LET ME EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU. FOR INSTANCE, I CAN'T ANSWER THAT QUESTION.I THINK YOU'RE ASKING ME AS IF THERE WAS A DATE WHEN I SAT DOWN AND NOW ON THE OEC COURSE? MS. PLEVIN: MM-HMM.
THE WITNESS: THE FIRST TIME EVER, I COULDN'T GIVE YOU A DATE ON THAT.
MS. PLEVIN: FINE.
Q. BUT YOU'VE TAKEN THE OEC? YOU HAVE TAKEN A COURSE ENTITLED THE ORG EXECUTIVE COURSE?
A. NO. TAKEN? NO, I DON'T -- I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS, TAKEN -- NO.
Q. REGISTERED FOR THE ORG EXECUTIVE COURSE, BEEN CERTIFIED AS HAVING TAKEN THE ORG EXECUTIVE COURSE?
MR. HERTZBERG: THOSE ARE TWO SEPARATE QUESTIONS, UNLESS THAT'S WHAT YOU MEAN BY "TAKEN."
THE WITNESS: LET ME EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU --
MS. PLEVIN: LET ME ASK THE QUESTION.
THE WITNESS: GOOD, FINE. GO AHEAD.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. HAVE YOU BEEN CERTIFIED AS HAVING TAKEN THE ORG EXECUTIVE COURSE?
A. I DON'T THINK SO.
Q. HAVE YOU GRADUATED FROM THE ORG EXECUTIVE COURSE?
A. NO.
Q. BUT YOU'VE DONE THE ORG EXECUTIVE COURSE?
MR. HERTZBERG: I DON'T KNOW WHAT "DONE" MEANS.
MS. PLEVIN: WE'LL GO ON AND COME BACK TO IT. FOR SOME REASON THIS IS -- WELL, MAYBE THERE'S ANOTHER WAY OF GETTING AT IT.
Q. HAVE YOU BEEN CHECKED OUT OR STAR-RATED ON THE ORG EXECUTIVE COURSE?
A. NO, S-T-A-R, DASH, RATED.
Q. NOW, WHILE YOU WERE GOING BACK TO WHERE WE WERE BEFORE THE LAST BREAK, WHILE YOU WERE ACTION CHIEF CMO INT RUNNING MISSIONS --
A. OKAY.
Q. -- DID YOU PERFORM ANY OTHER FUNCTIONS, OTHER THAN WHAT YOU'VE ALREADY INDICATED, WHICH IS RUNNING MISSIONS AND -- SUCH AS YOU'VE DESCRIBED?
A. DO YOU MEAN DURING THE WHOLE TIME PERIOD? WHEN?
Q. DURING THE WHOLE TIME PERIOD THAT YOU WERE ACTION CHIEF CMO INT --
A. THERE WAS NOTHING THAT I DID THE ENTIRE DURATION OF THAT, THAT WAS CONCURRENT WITH IT.
Q. OKAY. WERE THERE OTHER FUNCTIONS THAT YOU PERFORMED WHILE YOU WERE ACTION CHIEF CMO INT?
A. AT TIMES.
Q. AT TIMES. SUCH AS?
A. BUT NOT WHILE I WAS BEING ACTION CHIEF CMO INT, BUT DURING THE SAME TIME PERIOD.
Q. AND WHAT WERE THOSE?
A. I WAS A MESSENGER. LET'S SEE.
Q. YOU CAN'T THINK OF ANY? WE'LL GO ONTO SOMETHING ELSE -- YOU CAN'T THINK OF ANY OTHER FUNCTIONS, MR. MISCAVIGE?
A. IS THAT A QUESTION?
Q. I'M ASKING -- YES, IT IS A QUESTION. CAN YOU --
A. WELL, I WAS THINKING.
Q. OKAY. I DON'T WANT TO INTERRUPT YOU.
MR. HELLER: YOU DID.
THE WITNESS: I BELIEVE I GAVE YOU ONE THERE,TOO, BY THE WAY. YOU SAID I DIDN'T THINK OF ANY. I THINK I DID GIVE YOU ONE THERE.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. WELL, IF YOU THINK OF ANY OTHERS, YOU LET ME KNOW.
MR. HERTZBERG: WELL WAIT A MOMENT. WAIT A MOMENT. IS HE SUPPOSED TO BE THINKING OF THE OTHERS DURING THE DEPOSITION, AFTER THE DEPOSITION? YOU WANT HIM TO TELL YOU NOW, BEFORE WE MOVE ONTO THE NEXT QUESTION, IF HE CAN THINK OF ANY OTHERS? MS. PLEVIN: IF HE CAN'T THINK OF ANY OTHERS, HE CAN SAY SO AND WE'LL GO ON.
THE WITNESS: I CAN'T. I'LL HAVE TO REVIEW -- I HAVE TO TRACK -- THIS BEGINS WHEN I WAS ACTUALLY CHIEF CMO.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. WHEN YOU WERE ACTING AS A MESSENGER DURING THIS PERIOD, YOU MEAN AS A MESSENGER OF THE COMMODORE?
A. YES, L. RON HUBBARD.
MS. PLEVIN: I'M HANDING YOU A DOCUMENT ENTITLED SEA ORG FLAG ORDER 3729. COUNSEL IS LOOKING AT IT, ANOTHER ONE.
MR. HELLER: DO YOU HAVE COPIES AS WELL?
MS. PLEVIN: I HAD NO IDEA HOW MANY WERE GOING TO BE HERE. I HAD ONE FOR COUNSEL FOR MR. MISCAVIGE, MR. MISCAVIGE AND MYSELF.
THE WITNESS: YOU CAN LOOK OVER MY SHOULDER.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THIS DOCUMENT?
MR. HERTZBERG: DON'T ANSWER.
(CONFERENCE BETWEEN COUNSEL AND WITNESS.)
THE WITNESS: I'LL TELL YOU WHAT. I'LL READ THE WHOLE DOCUMENT.
MR. HERTZBERG: ALL RIGHT. THE PENDING QUESTION IS: IS HE FAMILIAR WITH THE DOCUMENT.
MS. PLEVIN: THAT'S THE PENDING QUESTION.
MR. HERTZBERG: OKAY. DO YOU UNDERSTAND "FAMILIAR"?
THE WITNESS: I THINK SO.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. AND HAVE YOU SEEN THIS DOCUMENT BEFORE?
A. NOT IN THIS FORM, I HAVEN'T, NO, BUT I HAVE SEEN THIS WRITING.
Q. OKAY. AND DOES THIS WRITING -- STRIKE THAT. THIS IS THE CONTENT OF FLAG ORDER 3729?
A. I'D HAVE TO VERIFY THAT'S THE NUMBER, BUT I'LL TAKE YOUR WORD FOR IT THAT THIS IS OFFICIAL, RIGHT.
Q. THIS IS ONE OF THE DOCUMENTS WHICH DESCRIBES THE FUNCTION OF A COMMODORE'S MESSENGER?
A. THE FUNCTION OF A COMMODORE'S MESSENGER?
Q. SUCH AS IN THE FIRST LINE, A COMMODORE'S MESSENGER CARRYING AN ORDER OR RUNNING A PROJECT OR OTHERWISE ON DUTY AS AN EMISSARY OF THE COMMODORE, AND SO FORTH.
A. NO. THIS DOESN'T DESCRIBE "FUNCTION" AT ALL. THERE'S NOT ONE MENTION OF "FUNCTION" IN HERE, NO.
Q. WELL --
A. YOU'RE MISREADING IT. IT DOESN'T SAY THAT.
Q. OKAY. THE DOCUMENT WILL SPEAK FOR ITSELF?
MR. DRESCHER: THAT'S CORRECT, IT WILL.
MR. HERTZBERG: THAT'S RIGHT. IT WILL SPEAK FOR ITSELF.
THE WITNESS: OKAY.
MS. PLEVIN: WHY DON'T WE MARK THIS AS PLAINTIFF'S 1, PLEASE.
(THE DOCUMENT REFERRED TO WAS MARKED BY THE C.S.R. AS PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 1 FOR IDENTIFICATION AND ATTACHED TO AND MADE A PART OF THIS DEPOSITION.)
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF THE SECOND TAPE OF THE DEPOSITION OF DAVID MISCAVIGE. ON JULY 19, 1990 -- DID WE MARK THAT?
A. YES.
Q. OKAY. TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE, MR. MISCAVIGE, WAS THIS WRITTEN BY L. RON HUBBARD?
MR. HERTZBERG: YOU'RE ASKING DOES HE HAVE ANY PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE THAT L. RON HUBBARD WROTE IT?
MS. PLEVIN: I'M ASKING HIM TO THE BEST OF HIS KNOWLEDGE, WAS IT WRITTEN BY L. RON HUBBARD.
MS. PLEVIN: SECOND TAPE, DEPOSITION OF DAVID MISCAVIGE, JULY 19, 1990.
Q. TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE, WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS PLAINTIFF'S 1, WHICH IS SEA ORG FLAG ORDER 3729 --
A. RIGHT.
Q. -- IS THIS WRITTEN BY L. RON HUBBARD, TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE?
Q. WELL, DO YOU HAVE A BELIEF THAT IT WAS WRITTEN BY L. RON HUBBARD?
A. YES.
Q. AND AS A COMMODORE'S MESSENGER, WOULD YOU BE GUIDED BY MR. HUBBARD'S WRITINGS REGARDING COMMODORE'S MESSENGERS?
MR. HERTZBERG: YOU MEAN WHEN HE WAS A COMMODORE MESSENGER?
MS. PLEVIN: WHEN YOU WERE A COMMODORE MESSENGER.
THE WITNESS: GUIDED. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "GUIDED"?
MS. PLEVIN: I THINK I'LL LET THE QUESTION STAND.
MR. HELLER: IF YOU CAN UNDERSTAND IT, TO ANSWER IT, ANSWER IT, OR JUST SAY YOU CAN'T --
THE WITNESS: I DON'T UNDERSTAND.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. WOULD YOU BE GUIDED IN YOUR PERFORMANCE, IN YOUR DUTIES AS A COMMODORE'S MESSENGER, BY THIS DOCUMENT?
MR. HERTZBERG: YOU MEAN WAS HE -- LET'S BE CLEAR HERE. AGAIN, JUST FOR STARTERS, I CANNOT IMAGINE HOW THIS IS RELEVANT AT ALL TO THE ALLEGATIONS IN THE COMPLAINT. I WILL LET HIM ANSWER THE QUESTION. I THINK WE'RE WASTING A LOT OF TIME.
I WILL LET HIM ANSWER IT IF HE CAN UNDERSTAND IT, AND I ASSUME YOU'RE -- ARE YOU ASKING HIM WHETHER -- WHEN HE WAS A COMMODORE MESSENGER, HE WAS GUIDED BY THIS DOCUMENT?
MS. PLEVIN: YES.
MR. HERTZBERG: OR ACTED ACCORDINGLY?
MS. PLEVIN: YES.
MR. HERTZBERG: OKAY. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT SHE'S --
THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY "GUIDED," NO, I DON'T.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. DID YOU COMPLY WITH THE --
A. THERE'S NOTHING TO COMPLY TO. THERE'S NOTHING TO COMPLY TO. IT'S A STATEMENT.
Q. OKAY.
A. OKAY.
Q. OF THE COMMODORE'S FUNCTION, COMMODORE'S MESSENGER'S FUNCTIONS?
A. NO.
Q. OKAY. IT WILL STAND FOR ITSELF.
A. OKAY.
MS. PLEVIN: SHOWING YOU A FOUR-PAGE -- OH, THE LAST ONE IS A DUPLICATE THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN TAKEN OFF.
Q. IF YOU WOULD BE SO KIND,
MR. MISCAVIGE, TURN TO THE LAST PAGE OF THIS. THERE'S AN EXTRA PAGE BECAUSE ONE HAD BEEN POORLY COPIED.
A. THIS ONE?
Q. YES. THAT'S AN IMPROPER DUPLICATE OF THE SECOND PAGE IN THIS --
MR. DRESCHER: DO YOU WANT HIM TO REMOVE IT, THE LAST PAGE?
MS. PLEVIN: YES. IT'S NOT NECESSARY. IT'S A DUPLICATE OF A PRIOR PAGE. HERE, TAKE THIS ONE.
MR. DRESCHER: HERE. CAN I READ IT?
MS. PLEVIN: OH, ALL RIGHT. I DO HAVE ANOTHER ONE OF THAT.YES, THAT'S FINE.
MR. DRESCHER: OKAY.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THIS DOCUMENT BEFORE?
A. NO, I HAVEN'T.
MS. PLEVIN: OKAY.
(CONFERENCE BETWEEN COUNSEL AND WITNESS.)
THE WITNESS: I DID. I HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS BEFORE.
MR. DRESCHER: ARE YOU GOING TO HAVE IT MARKED?
MS. PLEVIN: YES. WE'LL MARK THIS AS PLAINTIFF'S 2.
(THE DOCUMENT REFERRED TO WAS MARKED BY THE C.S.R. AS PLAINTIFF'S EXHIBIT 2 FOR IDENTIFICATION AND ATTACHED TO AND MADE A PART OF THIS DEPOSITION.)
MR. HERTZBERG: HE HASN'T IDENTIFIED IT. THE QUESTION --
MR. DRESCHER: IT CAN BE MARKED AS AN EXHIBIT TO THE DEPOSITION TO SHOW WHAT HE'S NEVER SEEN BEFORE.
MS. PLEVIN: EXACTLY. AND I'M NOW SHOWING YOU A TWO-PAGE DOCUMENT ENTITLED, EXECUTIVE DIRECTIVE ED92 CMO WITH A SUBTITLE OF CMO REGULATIONS.
MR. HERTZBERG: WITH A SUBTITLE OF WHAT?
MS. PLEVIN: CMO REGULATIONS IN THE CENTER.
MR. HERTZBERG: DO YOU WANT HIM TO LOOK AT IT?
MS. PLEVIN: PLEASE.
MR. HERTZBERG: OKAY.
THE WITNESS: OKAY.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THIS DOCUMENT?
MR. HERTZBERG: DO YOU MEAN ASIDE FROM HIS HAVING JUST READ IT NOW?
MS. PLEVIN: YES, OF COURSE.
THE WITNESS: VAGUELY.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. THE CONTENT REGARDING CMO REGULATIONS, WERE THESE REGULATIONS OF -- WITH REGARD TO YOUR CONDUCT AS A CMO -- AS A MEMBER OF THE CMO WHILE YOU WERE A MEMBER OF THE CMO, TO THE BEST OF YOUR RECOLLECTION?
A. LET ME ASK --
(CONFERENCE BETWEEN COUNSEL AND WITNESS.)
THE WITNESS: ALL RIGHT. CAN I HAVE THE QUESTION AGAIN?
MS. PLEVIN: PLEASE READ THE QUESTION BACK.
(RECORD READ.)
MS. PLEVIN: THAT WAS PRETTY GARBLED.
MR. HERTZBERG: I THINK THAT WAS THE PROBLEM. OKAY.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. THE POWERS AND RIGHTS OF A MEMBER OF THE CMO AS DESCRIBED IN THIS DOCUMENT, WERE THE POWERS AND RIGHTS OF MEMBERS OF THE CMO DURING THE TIME THAT YOU WERE A MEMBER OF THE CMO; IS THAT CORRECT?
MR. HELLER: I'LL OBJECT. IT ASSUMES THESE WERE POWERS AND RIGHTS -- THAT THESE ARE THE POWERS AND RIGHTS THAT WERE IN EFFECT WHEN THIS DOCUMENT WAS WRITTEN OR THAT IN FACT EMBODIES THE POWERS AND RIGHTS OF SOMEONE FROM THE CMO.
MS. PLEVIN: OH, WE CAN TAKE THEM ONE AT A TIME, MR. MISCAVIGE.
THE WITNESS: WELL, I CAN'T -- YOU WANT THE ANSWER TO THE GENERAL?
MS. PLEVIN: YES.
THE WITNESS: IT'S ODD. WHEN THIS CAME OUT, I WASN'T DIRECTLY WORKING IN THE CMO. YOU'RE ASKING ME A HISTORICAL QUESTION. THAT'S MY PROBLEM.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. WHEN DID YOU JOIN THE CMO?
A. 1976.
Q. OKAY. AND THIS WAS ISSUED IN 1978?
A. APPEARS TO BE, 11 JANUARY 1978.
Q. OKAY. TO THE BEST OF YOUR RECOLLECTION, WAS THIS DISTRIBUTED TO MEMBERS OF THE CMO AT THAT TIME?
A. I WOULD GUESS IT WAS.
MR. HERTZBERG: "AT THAT TIME" MEANING IN 1978?
MS. PLEVIN: YES.
MR. HERTZBERG: DON'T GUESS. IF YOU HAVE NO PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE THAT IT WAS, YOU CAN'T GUESS.
MR. HELLER: YOUR ANSWER IS, "I DON'T KNOW."
THE WITNESS: I CAN ONLY GUESS. SO I COULD ONLY ANSWER I DON'T KNOW, NO.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. IS THIS, TO THE BEST OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE, CURRENTLY IN FORCE AS CMO REGULATION ED92 TODAY?
MR. HERTZBERG: ALL RIGHT. I'M GOING TO LET HIM ANSWER, BUT I -- IT'S -- I'M HARD PRESSED TO UNDERSTAND WHY WE'RE -- THESE QUESTIONS AND THE PRECEDING QUESTIONS ARE BEING ASKED. WE HAVE A LAWSUIT. IT DEALS WITH THINGS THAT MR. CORYDON CLAIMS WERE DONE AGAINST HIM.
WHETHER THIS -- AND BY THE WAY, THE PURPOSE OF THIS DEPOSITION IS TO FIND OUT WHAT MR. MISCAVIGE DID OR DIDN'T DO WITH RESPECT TO THE ALLEGATIONS AGAINST MR. CORYDON. HOW -- WHETHER THIS 1978 EXECUTIVE DIRECTIVE IS IN FORCE TODAY IN THE CMO STRIKES ME AS THE HEIGHT OF IRRELEVANCE. YOU MAY ANSWER.
THE WITNESS: OKAY. I CONSIDER THE QUESTION SORT OF SILLY. THIS ISSUE APPEARS TO TALK ABOUT COMMODORE'S MESSENGER HAVING AN ORDER AND ALSO IN RELATION TO THE COMMODORE. THE COMMODORE IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE, L. RON HUBBARD AND AS YOU PROBABLY ARE AWARE, ON 24 JANUARY 6, HE PASSED AWAY.
SECONDLY, THIS IS AN EXECUTIVE DIRECTIVE AND IT IS BASIC POLICY OF THE CHURCH THAT EXECUTIVE DIRECTIVES HAVE, AT MOST, A ONE-YEAR TIME FRAME WHEREBY THEY'RE IN FORCE. THEY DO NOT HAVE THE FORCE OF POLICY. THERE'S A GRADIENT SCALE OF ISSUES AND POLICIES WITHIN THE CHURCH AND AN EXECUTIVE DIRECTIVE EXPIRES AFTER ONE YEAR, SO SINCE THIS IS 11 JANUARY 1978, I WOULD ASSUME NOT.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHETHER THIS HAS BEEN ADOPTED OR REISSUED? MR. HERTZBERG: IF YOU KNOW.
THE WITNESS: I DON'T KNOW -- WHAT YOU MEAN BY READOPTED? MS. PLEVIN:
Q. LET'S LIMIT IT TO REISSUED.
A. ARE YOU ASKING ME IF THIS IS A CURRENT EXECUTIVE DIRECTIVE? Q. YES.
A. TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE?
Q. YES.
A. NO.
Q. IS THERE A CURRENT EXECUTIVE DIRECTIVE REGARDING CMO REGULATIONS, TO THE BEST YOUR KNOWLEDGE? A. I DON'T KNOW.
Q. WHO WOULD?
A. I DON'T KNOW THAT THERE IS. I DON'T KNOW ANYBODY WHO WOULD.
Q. AT THE TIME THAT YOU WERE IN THE CMO, LET'S PUT SOME TIME FRAME ON IT, MISCAVIGE. YOU SAID YOU JOINED THE CMO IN APPROXIMATELY 1976? A. YES.
Q. AND HOW LONG WERE YOU IN THE CMO? I TAKE IT BY MR. HERTZBERG'S COMMENT, THAT YOU'RE NO LONGER IN THE CMO?
MR. HERTZBERG: I DIDN'T MAKE ANY COMMENT ABOUT WHETHER HE WAS OR HE WASN'T. BUT YOU MAY ANSWER THE QUESTION.
MR. HELLER: WHICH I THINK IS: ARE YOU PRESENTLY IN THE CMO?
THE WITNESS: NO.
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. OKAY. WHEN DID YOU CEASE BEING IN THE CMO?
A. OKAY. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "BEING IN THE CMO"? WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO YOU, BEING IN THE CMO? I WANT TO MAKE SURE WE'RE IN AGREEMENT HERE ON WHAT I'M ANSWERING. Q. THE COMMODORE MESSENGER ORGANIZATION STILL EXISTS, EVEN THOUGH HUBBARD PASSED AWAY IN 1986?
A. RIGHT.
Q. ARE YOU A MEMBER OF THE COMMODORE'S MESSENGER ORGANIZATION?
A. NO.
Q. DID YOU RESIGN FROM THE COMMODORE'S MESSENGER ORGANIZATION?
A. NO.
Q. WERE YOU --
MR. HERTZBERG: NOTE MY CONTINUING OBJECTION TO THE RELEVANCE OF THESE QUESTIONS. YOU MAY ANSWER.
MS. PLEVIN: HE HAS.
Q. ALL RIGHT. IN WHAT WAY WAS YOUR MEMBERSHIP IN THE CMO TERMINATED?
A. THE QUESTION IS SENSELESS. I DON'T GET IT. I NEVER HAD A MEMBERSHIP CARD OR MEMBERSHIP -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.
Q. YOU WERE A COMMODORE'S MESSENGER?
A. YES.
Q. WHEN DID YOU CEASE BEING A COMMODORE'S MESSENGER?
A. WELL, THE -- OKAY. CEASE TO BE A COMMODORE'S MESSENGER? I WAS A COMMODORE'S MESSENGER WHEN I WAS A COMMODORE'S MESSENGER. YOU'RE ASKING DIFFERENT QUESTIONS HERE. THIS IS NOT THE SAME QUESTION YOU ASKED BEFORE. YOU ASKED CMO. COMMODORE'S MESSENGER IS NOT THE SAME AS CMO. ARE YOU ASKING ME WHEN I WAS -- I DON'T --
Q. OKAY. YOU WERE IN THE COMMODORE'S MESSENGER ORGANIZATION FOR SOME PERIOD OF TIME? A. YES, I WAS.
Q. AND WHICH --
A. SEVERAL DIFFERENT ONES THOUGH.
Q. TELL ME THOSE PERIODS OF TIME.
A. IN 1976, ON AND OFF, I'D SAY, 50-50 THAT YEAR. 1977 I'D SAY PRETTY MUCH THE WHOLE YEAR. 1978, I'D GIVE IT A 70-30 OR 80-20. 1979, THE WHOLE YEAR. 1980, THE WHOLE YEAR. 1981, 80 TO 90 PERCENT. THAT'S IN THE CMO ORGANIZATION, COMMODORE'S MESSENGER ORGANIZATION.
Q. MM-HMM?
A. OKAY. THAT'S YOUR ANSWER.
Q. AND NOT SINCE '81?
A. I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE, BUT I THINK -Q. MAYBE YOU DID SOME --
A. I DON'T THINK SO, BUT I'D HAVE TO REALLY WORK MY MIND OUT TO FIGURE OUT -- I THINK IT WAS NEAR THE END OF '81, LIKE THE FALL. Q. CAN YOU BE A COMMODORE'S MESSENGER WITHOUT BEING IN THE CMO?
A. YES.
Q. WELL, COULD YOU CLARIFY THAT FOR ME, PLEASE?
MR. DRESCHER: CLARIFY WHAT? I'M SORRY? CLARIFY WHAT?
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. HOW ONE IS A COMMODORE'S MESSENGER WITHOUT BEING A MEMBER OF THE COMMODORE'S MESSENGER ORG?
A. COMMODORE'S MESSENGER HAS MANY DIFFERENT MEANINGS, AND TO CLARIFY IT FOR YOU, I'M NOT SURE, I THINK --
Q. SO NOT ALL COMMODORE'S MESSENGERS ARE MEMBERS OF THE CMO; IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING?
A. "MEMBERS" IS THE WRONG WORD. I DON'T KNOW -- THAT'S THE WORD I HAVE TROUBLE WITH.
Q. WHAT IS THE RIGHT WORD, IF YOU ARE --
A. POSTED IN CMO.
Q. OKAY. SO WHEN YOU SAY THAT DURING THESE VARIOUS YEARS, '76 THROUGH '81, WHERE YOU'VE GIVEN US THE PERCENTAGES OF THE TIME THAT YOU WERE WITH PART OF CMO, YOU MEAN THAT YOU WERE POSTED IN CMO FOR THOSE PERIODS OF TIME? A. YES.
Q. OKAY. AS A COMMODORE'S MESSENGER, YOU WOULD CONTINUE, AS A COMMODORE'S MESSENGER, TO HAVE THAT DESIGNATION?
A. NOT ALWAYS, AND NOT ALWAYS THERE EITHER, AND JUST TO FURTHER CLARIFY, PEOPLE CAN IN THE CMO AND NOT BE A MESSENGER, EITHER A COMMODORE'S MESSENGER, AND ON THOSE DATES NOT WAYS WAS I A COMMODORE'S MESSENGER.
Q. BUT YOU WERE POSTED IN THE CMO IN IS SERIES OF DATES, 1976-81?
A. YES, AND YOU PRETTY MUCH COULD STATE AT I HAD THE STATUS OF A COMMODORE'S MESSENGER RING THOSE DATES I GAVE YOU THERE.
Q. OKAY. WHEN WERE YOU A COMMODORE'S MESSENGER, APART FROM BEING POSTED IN THE CMO?
A. WELL, WHAT DATES DO YOU HAVE THERE AT I GAVE YOU?
Q. WELL, A GREAT --
A. IT'S A TOUGH QUESTION. LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE. I GAVE YOU -- WHAT DID I SAY HERE FOR 1986?
Q. ON AND OFF, 50-50.
A. RIGHT. OKAY. THERE'S AN EXAMPLE. AT YEAR I WAS ON FMMO 1672 AND 1673, AND I WASN'T OPERATING OUT OF CMO AND THE PERSON WHO WAS MY MISSION OPERATIONS WAS NOT IN THE CMO, BUT I SORT OF STILL CONSIDERED I WAS A COMMODORE'S MESSENGER. Q. WAS THAT GAIL IRWIN YOU WERE OPERATING UNDER IN THOSE --
A. NO, IT WASN'T.
Q. DO YOU KNOW WHO IT WAS?
MR. DRESCHER: ASKED AND ANSWERED.
THE WITNESS: I WAS OPERATING UNDER WHEN?
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. ON FMO IN '76, '77.
A. YES, JOHN HORWITZ. ALSO YOU HAVE TO HAVE ANOTHER DISTINCTION THERE, JUST SO I'M REALLY CLEAR FOR THE RECORD HERE. AT THAT TIME I'D NEVER MET L. RON HUBBARD, BUT I WAS STILL CONSIDERED A COMMODORE'S MESSENGER. I'D NEVER SPOKEN TO HIM. Q. WHEN DID YOU FIRST MEET L. RON HUBBARD? LET ME SEE IF I CAN HELP YOU OUT. WAS IT BEFORE GOING TO LA QUINTA?
A. NO, IT WAS AT LA QUINTA.
Q. AT LA QUINTA. WHILE YOU WERE AT LA QUINTA, DID YOU SEE HIM ON A FREQUENT BASIS?
MR. HERTZBERG: WHAT YEARS ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?
MS. PLEVIN: WELL, HE WAS AT LA QUINTA FOR TWO YEARS, '77, '78.
MR. HELLER: I OBJECT AS TO VAGUENESS OF THE WORD "FREQUENT."
BY MS. PLEVIN:
Q. CAN YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION?
A. THE ANSWER IS YES AND NO.
Q. OKAY. TELL ME HOW IT'S "YES."
A. SOMETIMES YES, SOMETIMES NO.
Q. DIFFERENT PERIODS OF TIME YOU MIGHT SEE HIM FREQUENTLY FOR SEVERAL WEEKS OR SEVERAL MONTHS, AND THEN YOU MIGHT NOT SEE HIM AT ALL? IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN, FOR SEVERAL MONTHS?
A. SOMETIMES, BUT -- NO, BUT SOMETIMES --
MR. HERTZBERG: YOU KNOW -- GO AHEAD. FINISH THE ANSWER.
THE WITNESS: SOMETIMES I WOULD SEE HIM FREQUENTLY, SOMETIMES NOT.
MS. PLEVIN: OKAY. THAT ANSWERS IT.
THE WITNESS: AND "MONTHS" MAYBE ISN'T NECESSARILY THE CASE AND MAYBE IT IS. IT VARIED.
MS. PLEVIN: THAT'S FINE.
Q. WHAT ABOUT AFTER SPECIAL UNIT MOVED TO GILMAN HOT SPRINGS?
MR. HERTZBERG: NOW, I JUST WANT TO NOTE MY CONTINUING OBJECTION ON RELEVANCY GROUNDS TO THESE QUESTIONS. I DON'T KNOW HOW THEY RELATE TO THE COMPLAINT. I HAVE YET TO HEAR, THROUGH NEARLY THREE HOURS THIS MORNING, I HAVE YET TO HEAR THE NAME BENT CORYDON, YOUR CLIENT'S NAME, ANY REFERENCE TO HIS MISSION. I HAVE YET TO SEE A SINGLE QUESTION EMANATING FROM THE COMPLAINT, AND I REALLY THINK THAT WE'RE GETTING MORE AND MORE REMOTE AND WASTING MORE AND MORE TIME.
MS. PLEVIN: WELL, I'LL STATE FOR THE RECORD WHAT HAS BEEN STATED IN OTHER DEPOSITIONS, MR. HERTZBERG, AND I THINK YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS MY POSITION. IT IS CENTRAL IN THIS COMPLAINT TO EVALUATE -- MR. MISCAVIGE IS LEAVING THE ROOM, TO THE BATHROOM. I
ASSUME HE'LL BE BACK IN A FEW MINUTES. WE'LL NOTE THAT FOR THE RECORD. GO AHEAD.
THE WITNESS: SHOULD I WAIT HERE?
MS. PLEVIN: NO. GO AHEAD. THE CLAIMS IN THIS COMPLAINT ISSUE -- AND ISSUES IN THIS COMPLAINT INCLUDE THE ISSUE OF WHETHER THE SCIENTOLOGY DEFENDANTS IN THIS MATTER ARE RUN AS A SINGLE ENTITY, AND FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES, AND ARE RUN ACCORDING TO THE WISHES OF MR. MISCAVIGE, AS THEY MAY BE EXPRESSED DIRECTLY OR THROUGH HIS AGENTS TO OTHER PEOPLE, AND THOSE AGENTS BEING INVOLVED WITH HIM AS A MANAGING CADRE OF SCIENTOLOGY, IF YOU WILL. MUCH OF THE DISCOVERY TO DATE, INCLUDING DISCOVERY WHICH HAS BEEN ORDERED PRODUCED BY THE COURT, IS DESIGNED TO ELICIT INFORMATION REGARDING THE ISSUE I'VE JUST DESCRIBED. MR. MISCAVIGE'S BACKGROUND AS A PERSON WITH POSTS IN VARIOUS ORGS AND CORPORATIONS IS DIRECTLY RELEVANT BACKGROUND WITH REGARD TO ESTABLISHING HIS ROLE, WHATEVER IT MAY BE.
IT MAY TAKE ME ALL DAY TO EXPLORE MR. MISCAVIGE'S BACKGROUND, AND I INTEND TO EXPLORE MR. MISCAVIGE'S BACKGROUND. I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE.
MR. HERTZBERG: OKAY. WITHOUT ACQUIESCING IN ANYTHING YOU SAID, MY POINT HERE IS EVEN IF THAT IS WHAT YOUR PURPOSE IS AND EVEN IF YOUR -- WHAT YOU CALL THE EXPLORATION OF HIS BACKGROUND IS PERMISSIBLE IN THE MANNER IN WHICH YOU'VE PROCEEDED THIS MORNING, QUITE APART FROM THAT, THE NUMBER OF TIMES THAT MR. MISCAVIGE MAY REMEMBER THAT HE SAW MR. HUBBARD AT A GIVEN PERIOD IN TIME, THE NUMBER OF WHO WAS A SENIOR IN 1976 IN SOME UNIT IN FLORIDA, WHICH PREDATES A TIME PERIOD THAT PREDATES THE COMPLAINT BY TWO YEARS, THOSE KINDS OF QUESTIONS CAN'T POSSIBLY BE DESIGNED TO RELATE TO THE COMPLAINT. IF YOU WANT TO EXPLORE WHAT MR. MISCAVIGE SAID OR DID, HOW HE MAY HAVE ACTED WITH RESPECT TO MR. CORYDON OR EVEN SQUIRRELS, GENERALLY, THAT'S WHAT WE'RE HERE FOR, BUT NOT TO TALK ABOUT THESE IRRELEVANCIES. THAT'S MY POSITION.
MS. PLEVIN: YOU'VE MADE YOUR POSITION CLEAR, MR. HERTZBERG.
MR. HERTZBERG: FINE. OKAY.